The People Code. Unlocking Relationships with Dr. Taylor Hartman

January 9, 2024

Tune into today’s episode of our podcast where we’re excited to host Dr. Taylor Hartman, the esteemed psychologist and author of ‘The People Code.’ With a rich career spanning over 30 years, Dr. Hartman has revolutionized the way we understand personal relationships by classifying core motives into four distinct colors. Join us as he shares his profound insights and how his innovative approach empowers individuals and organizations alike.


  • Personality profiling and its impact on relationships. 0:00
  • Personality types and their driving motives. 2:37
  • The Enneagram and self-awareness. 6:49
  • Personality types and their motivations. 11:27
  • Personality types and communication styles. 15:08
  • Personality types and their traits. 19:18
  • Personality types and communication styles. 33:01
  • Personality traits and life experiences of individuals with a yellow personality type. 37:45
  • Personality types and their traits. 41:57
  • Personality types and color coding. 46:50

Natalie 00:00
So on the Invigor medical podcast, we are always talking about ways to improve your health, improve the functionality of your life and your longevity, how to live that long, full, healthy, happy life. And a lot of times that’s playing into our physical health. And sometimes we’re playing into our mental and emotional health as well. But this is the first time in this episode with Dr. Hartman, that we’re really diving more into personalities, right. And that might feel like a bit of a departure to some of our listeners. But for him where I’m sitting, I think that it plays so much into mental health and into our relationships, and relationships and connection, play such an incredible role in how we live our lives. And the kind of fullness we’re able to step into in our lives. And I believe that diving into tools that can help you better identify who you are, what makes you tick, the lens with which you’re viewing the world will also help you be able to relate to other people have more empathy and compassion to other people, be in better relationship with them, and also with yourself. So personally, I think this conversation is incredibly relevant to what we always talk about here on invigor medical, and I hope that you all will agree with that. Stay tuned in for the duration of our conversation with Dr. Hartman.

Intro 01:19
Welcome to the Invigor Medical Podcast, where we sit down with medical professionals and discuss a full spectrum of health related subjects. It all starts in 3,2,1.

Natalie 01:31
Hello, and welcome to the Invigor medical Podcast. I’m Natalie garland. Today, I am not joined by my lovely co host, Derek Berkey. But that’s okay, because today’s topic is one that I will absolutely geek out on over and over again, anyone who’s ever had a conversation with me about personality profiling and what makes us tick. And the lenses we use to view the world knows that I will talk about it until someone tells me to shut up and then probably still won’t shut up. So now I have a guest who is captive to me for an hour and has to talk to me about it. So you could say, this is a really fantastic Friday for me. I’m very excited. Today, we’ll be joined by Dr. Taylor Hartman. He is the renowned psychologist and author behind the people code. He has over 30 years of experience. He has dedicated his life to enhancing personal relationships and understanding, classifying core motives into four vibrant colors, and empowering individuals and organizations with his insightful system. I’ve actually heard of this system before I’ve read a little bit about it and had conversations about it. So I’m so excited. Dr. Hartman, welcome to our podcast. Thank you for being here today.

Dr. Hartman 02:38
Thank you so much. It’s great to be with you.

Natalie 02:39
Oh good! I can tell that you are excited to talk about these things as well. And I know you have your own podcast. And so it’s always fun. When you can have a conversation with someone who’s as passionate about something as you are in, I would argue that you’re probably a lot more passionate about it than I am, since you’ve actually written an entire book. So I’m baby passionate?

Dr. Hartman 03:00
I am a believer.

Natalie 03:01
Good, good. Okay. So I’m sure there are plenty of people who don’t know what the system is at all. And probably people beyond that, that I’ve never really looked into any kind of system like it or diving deeper into a better understanding how they show up and the character traits and personalities that they put forward into the world. So I definitely want to get there. But first, I would love to hear a little bit about you and how you got into this work in the first place?

Dr. Hartman 03:29
Ah that’s a great question. I actually when I graduated with my master’s degree, I built the practice very full, very busy. And I have to tell you, I was missing something I needed. And that is what is always true. What can I really count on? When I’m working with clients? And in my field, we didn’t have that. We just listened to them. We talked to the issues. We make suggestions, but everything depended on how old you are, how you were raised, what your race is religion, I said, could there not be something that’s true for an 87 year old black man in in Seattle? That’s the same for a white child in Florida. Is there not something that I can actually hold on to? And I did like a second PhD actually researching, personality. I know, I did a lot of work on it. And I am a yellow. So that was a hard thing to do. I’m like, No, it’s a lot of work. But I love my clients, I wanted the best for them. And so what I came up with was great, but I couldn’t get motive. I couldn’t get a driving core motive that I would always know is true. And honestly, I’d be I’d be frank, I had inspiration. At some point. I said to God, look, you know, I put more energy into this. Do I need some help? And what I got was the four driving core motives that I could then tie to all the work I had done and it made sense now I got it. Yeah. It’s like I’m talking six months of therapy. Like once you know what you’re working with you don’t waste time promoting things that are not relevant. That’s a great truth.

Natalie 05:04
Yes. A great truth. I love that. And it makes so much sense to me because it, it’s so easy for the waters to feel very muddy, you know. And so I can know that like as a, as a patient of therapy to be like, where do we even begin? So I can imagine for you sitting on the other side of the couch continually trying to help people figuring out where to begin to be able to have something like this to kind of help identify it. So let’s talk about what is this color coding system, people heard you say something about yellow, and they know you have PhD? And you know a lot about these things. But what, what is it? What’s it called? How does it work? Give us a brief breakdown of this.

Dr. Hartman 05:43
Okay, so it’s the color code. And the reason it is and I’ve renamed to the people code, because they’re not racial intonations, but the truth is, it’s colors. It’s really about personality and motives. So the bottom line is there are people who are I classify red, and they are driven by power, okay, and all it means is they want to get from A to B. Like if we’re doing this interview, and I’m going off on some birdwalk having a great conversation and you’re like, and you’re red, you’re like, This is not the point. Next one, right. And then blue blues are driven by intimacy. They just want to connect that’s what they’re all about. Those two, by the way, are the heavyweights. Okay, yes. Strong. They spend their whole life trying to control. Okay, no lightweights refuse to be controlled, okay? The yellows and in the whites. So the whites are driven by peace, they hate conflict at all costs, they will do peace. And the yellows are driven by fun. Living in the moment is the driving court for them. I’m raising

Natalie 06:44
I’m raising my hand for those not watching video. And ironically, I’m wearing a yellow shirt today.

Dr. Hartman 06:49
I love that you’re exposing yourself well done.

Natalie 06:54
I’m working on vulnerability in my life. Dr. Hartman, that is so good. Hey, no, I’m very proud of you for that. Thank you. I’m proud of myself, honestly. But just listening a little bit to one of your podcast episodes. And some of the conversations I’ve had before, I could already feel like yellows, probably where I’m at on this scale. Yeah, so two yellows together for an hour, this could be interesting. It should be fun. Okay, so I want to dive more into each of these colors. And for people listening, how these could have an impact on their life. But first of all, before we lose people, because we’re right in the beginning of this episode, I think in my life, with with the inclination I have towards loving the sort of tools that give us a better picture of ourselves and others. And I think it can help really lead into empathy and compassion, not only for others, but for yourself, which I think is huge, because I’m not sure how you offer something to someone else that you don’t have for yourself. But so for people that already are into this kind of thing, they’re dialed in into the conversation, they’re going to be here for the long haul. But let’s talk a little bit about people who have never really taken the time to look into something like this or think this is not for me. And when I’ve had conversations with people like that, I think a response that I often get is something along the lines of well, I can’t be put into a box.

Dr. Hartman 08:10
Right, right.

Natalie 08:11
And so there’s this resistance to be defined, which I totally get, because humans are incredibly complex beings. And I think that I’ll say this, and I would love to hear what you have to say about it. But I think it’s all about the way that you view it. And and for me personally, I’m I’m a big fan of the Enneagram. I’m not sure if you’re familiar in an incredible two of my life. But for me the Enneagram and things like the people code, I think that it can actually be really freeing, rather than being put into a box. And I think it all depends on how you use it. And how you view it. If you view it as something that is defining you and making you smaller and like Well, now I have to operate out of this, then it is really limiting. But if you view it as a way to better identified how you’re showing up in the world, and maybe what pitfalls you’re continually falling into or what your strengths are, then it becomes an unlocking and an ability to really step into your power and the fullness of who you are. And that’s how I see it. I would love to hear how you would explain that. I don’t mind if I do.

Dr. Hartman 09:13
Actually doing a great job.

Natalie 09:15
Oh, thank you.

Dr. Hartman 09:15
I agree with that. Yeah, you’re absolutely right about that. I I honestly think What’s sad is that there are people who are fear based, and they don’t want to be contrived or they don’t want be limited. But the reality is what people look for in life is congruent. And I’m I my suggestion, for example is this. If you’re a red, and your goal in life, your innate driving because you’re born with this, you don’t get it here. You already came with it. It’s in the womb, every woman that gave birth to more one child knows that. Yeah, they’re different in the womb. The red child comes out and their thing is getting from A to B. That is what fulfills them. Yeah. So if they’re doing things that are counterproductive, to getting from A to B, they’re sabotaging their own In life, if you’re a yellow and you’re fun based, but you’re being negative, hardly people don’t want to be with you because you’re not fun. Right? Right. So you’re depriving yourself, you’re limiting yourself. The beauty of the color code is just gives you the tool to know, am I being congruent. And then the goal is to forgive others who are not like you. They don’t have the same needs you have.

Natalie 09:24
Right. And that’s a really tough thing to do in general, I think. But I like I love what you’re saying about that, though, because I think accepting who we are, and loving who we are, I believe is one of the the longest, hardest, most important journeys of our lives.

Dr. Hartman 10:41
Well said, Being kind to ourselves. I’ve always said to my clients, there’s a small child inside you, that is craving for you to take care of it. And you’re nice to everyone else around you, but not that person that needs you most, right? So this is a tool of saying, I like me, I like who I am. I’m grateful for where I am. And I apologize to those people who have been unloved for who they are, have been told to be different, right. I don’t believe that’s accurate. I think the truth is who they come as is the gift that they bring.

Natalie 11:16
Yeah. I think that’s really beautiful. And I think for anybody who is unsure if this is something that could be relevant to them, I hope that little snippet there could really encourage you to continue listening to everything Dr. Hartman is going to teach us today. I can just say, for me personally, this kind of journey has just been incredibly impactful in my relationship with myself and my relationship with other people. So let’s go a little bit further Dr. Hartman into this. So for somebody that’s listening, and they’re like, starting to think about themselves and what they might be, let’s take a little bit of time with each color, and maybe talk a little bit more about what that motivating forces for that color, how they’re showing up in the world, what might be their pitfalls and their strengths, etc.

Dr. Hartman 12:01
Well, we start with the Reds because they get angry if I do. But actually, the reason I start with reds is because people kind of know them. They’re more obvious, right? Yeah, every personality has a driving core motive. And then they have strengths and limitations that they’re born with. So I always describe people in one of three categories. There are four total, one is charactered. Okay, that’s living your life in the gifts of other colors. Okay. So as a yellow who’s responsible, that’s character, okay. We’re red. They’re innately responsible. So it’s healthy. Okay. Second one is healthy. The third one is unhealthy. Those are the limitations of your core. And then sicko, and sicko is stuff, your negative, that’s not even your personality. Okay, negative traits that aren’t yours. So let’s just start by talking about the innate core color and the strengths, some strengths limitations. On my profile, there’s 15 positives, 15 negatives, right. Okay. So let’s start read start with power. Their whole bottom line is to make things happen. Okay, who’s done. And I was read raised by a red mother that I’m telling you, all of us, we’re going to go to college, and we’re going to do certain things. And yet she can be very kind of difficult. I remember what Easter dinner when she said to all the family, all her boys and their spouses. I don’t know what you guys did with my boys after they left my house, but they were great when they were living with me. And we just like throwing the gauntlet down and all the inlaws like, what am I doing?

Natalie 13:33
Shots fired!

Dr. Hartman 13:35
Shots fired. That’s exactly right. Yes. The positive my mom and all reds, they’re upbeat, they’re get things done. They don’t feel they don’t feel like victims as much as they create victims. Because they can be harsh and blunt. Okay, they’re very responsible. They show up to get things done. I think reds carry the weight of the world in getting things done. They’re like pack mules that carry everything up the mountain.

Natalie 14:03
Strong sense of responsibility, I’m guessing.

Dr. Hartman 14:05
Very responsible. You show up they don’t understand people that aren’t very hard for them. Yeah. Very, very determined, like they’re committed with if you’re gonna get something done, hire a red. I love to play sports on a reds team. Because they really want to win.

Natalie 14:20
And to use them terminology people might understand would it be fair to say like, type A personality for red?

Dr. Hartman 14:27
Yeah. Which is really good to know. Because then sometimes you’ll have blues who are Type A not as effective as red. Right? Okay, because the red they’re just very they’re all about like the facts, get things done. Take care of business. Don’t ever say to a red Well, if you loved me, you wouldn’t have done that. That does not make sense to them at all. Okay, does not compute say to the red is don’t do that. Right? Like a red guy will. Woo a girl gets the flowers gets a limo get the great teacup tickets once they marry no more flowers. And the woman feels cheated and deprived. Yeah. All she has to say is no more. No more flowers. No more me. Right? Right? Be blunt and direct about it. Don’t whine about it don’t get emotional about it, they will not do that. Red women are the same way. They’re very driven, very direct. They likes things brief and short. You know, people can actually get the code cards and they actually use these lots of companies. Where it before you meet with someone, you read the thing? Yes.

Natalie 15:28
Oh yes. I’m in sales. And that is a really great sales tool.

Dr. Hartman 15:31

Natalie 15:31
But a red.. I was thinking of like a TLDR type of person too long. Right? Give me the footnotes.

Dr. Hartman 15:38
Only the footnotes in fact . It’s so hard for couples, if you have a blue that wants to give the details, so you understand why it happened. The red is like, just tell me the last part. What was the end result? And the blues? Like? No, that doesn’t count. I have to tell you why. Yeah, right. The negative side of reds, they can be selfish, they can be all about themselves. What do I want to do what’s important to me? They can be insensitive. I love the story that girls walk around and say to someone, you’re fat. And the person will say, Oh, my gosh, why would you say that? And the red says you don’t know you’re fat. That’s even worse. They missed the point, which was you didn’t have set in the first place, right? So it can be rather insensitive, and blunt, very direct, and sometimes people find that is abrasive. I find that reds don’t mean their bite is not as bad as their bark. That’s what I find. They’re very direct and blunt and want to get on to the next thing. They’re impatient. They don’t do well. People who are not smart. They don’t appreciate long lines are people that are not efficient.

Natalie 15:53
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because they’re trying to get from point A to point B

Dr. Hartman 16:47
100%. Right. And I will say that most reds are smart. Like watching Jeopardy, they kind of get it. But it does lead us to the second worst animal in human kingdom. And that’s the dumb red. Who thinks they’re smart, but they’re not.

Dr. Hartman 17:03
Which animal? The dumb red? Okay, gotcha.

Dr. Hartman 17:09
We make sense, even though the pushy, they make sense, but a dumb red Gotcha. thinks they know better than anybody else. And they don’t.

Natalie 17:17
And that’s not fun to be around.

Dr. Hartman 17:18
No, that’s not fun to be around. They wear people out.

Natalie 17:20
Well I was thinking what you’re talking about reds really liking directness, you know, because I know some reds in my life. Right? And, and I think that because they they are always that way. And they’re so focused, that they just assume other people will will do the same for them. And so it feels like just incredibly normal behavior. And like, well, obviously, you just want me to tell you that you will look fat in that dress, because I would want to know that. And so there’s definitely a work towards like empathy and compassion and recognizing that not everybody else wants news to be delivered in the manner that you do. And if you want to be in connection, you’re going to have to figure out how to soften that a little bit.

Dr. Hartman 18:01
That is so good. I mean, it’s so different when a red is able to see beyond themselves and understand that for others that’s not effective. Yeah, right. No, they value it. In fact, by the way, the most character person in my mind, is the person that does for someone else, but they don’t need themselves.

Natalie 18:18
Hmm. That’s beautiful. I love that. So let’s talk about you. So we got through sort of the more negative sides of a red, what was the next step for you? And within characters?

Dr. Hartman 18:31
I mean, they really show up, they’re responsible, they are determined there was they, they fight for things that matter. Like I said, playing on a sports team with a good red, they will get everyone across the line, like Michael Jordan. They want things to happen for everybody they’re with on their team. A red parent fights for their kids wants the best for them. They push agendas that matter. They’re very stable. They don’t just flit away, they stay in, they stay in what they’re committed to very committed people. I’ve known a lot of reds, for example, that are not necessarily happy in a marriage, but they stay because they made a commitment. So they’re very genuine that way. They’re real. And they’re great at business. They’re great.

Natalie 19:18
Getting point A to point B, if you’re trying to start a bit, I could see a lot of entrepreneurs being reds. Yeah. Yeah. That would make sense to me. Okay, so what else about reds or is it time to move on to blues?

Dr. Hartman 19:31
Well, let’s just think about it. I want to say one more thing about the Teresa versus Putin. Oh, they’re both red. Yeah, just see the difference. I mean, one could use red to enhance and bless one uses red to block and prevent. So it’s really important to understand what kind of a red you are. And don’t ever think that if you’re red, then you’re all like that. Right? Are you is you’re all driven by power. Right?

Natalie 19:58
And I would say whatever work Mother Teresa has done, you know, in an effort to pursue holiness and, and kindness, you know, again that to go back to the Enneagram again, but I remember when I was learning about the Enneagram, and the different numbers on the Enneagram, I was reading a book by father, Richard Rohr, who’s like one of my favorite authors and teachers of all time. And he was talking about how people, you know, there’s other personality types that are connected within the Enneagram. And that he believed Mother Teresa was an eight, which is like a red, it’s power. It’s like a very powerful, strong justice oriented number on the Enneagram. But that she was so redeemed, she appeared to the world as a to, which is the helper and the relationship driven personality.

Dr. Hartman 20:43
She’s known for being something that she wasn’t, but what she was, is what allowed that to happen. Yes.

Natalie 20:51
Oh, wait, see that, again, I’ve loved that’s so beautiful.

Dr. Hartman 20:56
You start to understand that dynamic of what she used her gift to then bless the world, in a way she’s remembered differently than who she really was.

Natalie 21:04
Yeah, and I think I just want to emphasize that because again, when we’re talking about tools like this not being meant to box you in, right, rather being meant to give you the perspective and the tools that you need to unlock and step into fullness. That was good. I love that. And I love the comparison between Putin and Mother Teresa, because well, that’s just a great visualization. Yeah, absolutely. Good. Okay, let’s, let’s go to blues.

Dr. Hartman 21:33
So that now you have blues and reds. And it’s kind of hard to compare the two of them. They’re very different beings, and very similar in some ways. So Reds and Blues spend their life like I said, trying to control others. But blues are more controlling then reds. Because blues are driven by morality. And so you can’t they’re not more pragmatic. They’re more driven by No, no, that’s not right. I can’t change my mind. But a red was more pragmatic. Okay, we can make this work between us and I’ll let that go. Right. Blues are very intimacy based intimacy means connection. And a lot of people don’t they don’t understand that. That’s what a blue always craves. It’s not sex. It’s connection. And it can be sex. Terrific, right? Sure. But they’re looking to be connected emotionally, and vulnerably. And that’s one of the reasons blues talk longer than probably others prefer, because they’re trying to be understood. Yeah, said that. If you want to own a blue, you have to be sincere. Because that’s the bottom line for blues to trust you to understand them. They crave being understood as a yellow, I could care less, if you understand me, doesn’t matter at all, to them. So understand that is really, really important. Right? So again, let’s start with the strengths of the blues. These people are caring. They’re so if you tell like a story to a blue, they remember it days later, they’ll call you back to see how it went. What happened. They don’t just forget it. My wife is blue. I tell our kids no tell mom. Remember everything. She told me I’ll forget. And then she’ll be mad. So they want to know, everything. That’s what a blue is all about. They’re very compassionate. And what this kind of a fun one. Whites are very kind, but not compassionate. And blues are very passionate, but not necessarily kind. And part of the reason is, blues and reds are judgmental and critical. They both notice things that are not right. Okay. So they have to always carry that with them. Whereas whites don’t whites and yellows did not notice or criticize very easily at all. So a blue has deep heart deep, caring, but they’re also critical. So it’s really hard as when they’re criticizing someone but they’re really doing it because they want to help you.

Natalie 24:06
I’m getting to see why you said that blues and reds and relationships have a lot of conflict.

Dr. Hartman 24:16
It’s really it’s very true. And yet by the way, it’s a common blend in marriage. Right because they show up to both sharp developments happen. Blues are also very genuine like they don’t lie. I whenever I’ve worked with a blue that lies I have a character flaw not a personality disorder that other colors will lie.. a red… You don’t need to know I took care of it. A white I don’t want the conflict I don’t want upset you let’s just let me like a yellow because they forgot what they told you the first time but not blue, blue people. They don’t do well with dishonesty. So that’s a big straw. They’re immoral about things that don’t matter. It’s interesting by the way In our research worldwide, we found that there were 35%, blue 25%, Red 20%, yellow and 20%. White. Wow, reference for the audience. Wow. So in terms of Law and Order blues are very organized. My wife walk into my office at least once a quarter and refresh my office, because she can see how it should look. You have they say everything has a place? I don’t know where that place is. Very organized, detail oriented. They felt like when we do a trip, she plans the details that are so I would go off my hip. And whatever happens yeah, so we kind of a nice blend. I love how she organizes the details that they’re very giving blues want to please others. Reds tend to one please himself. Okay. I see blues get caught up in but I’m doing such good things for you. Why aren’t you responding to me the way I want? So the strings can cause great conflict for blues in relationships. And they’re often unaware, I am doing so many good things for you. Why isn’t that appreciated?

Natalie 26:08
Well, and again, it’s just the expectations. And like we talked about with the red, it’s like, well, everybody would want this kind of directness doesn’t, you know, like I want. And so with the blues, it sounds to me like it’s an expectation like, I do all this for you. And I’m just assuming that you’re going to do the same for me, because this is how I show up. So clearly everyone else shows up the same way. Right?

Dr. Hartman 26:29
Yeah. That’s right. And then they don’t even understand why people are upset with them. They don’t understand it, because they would want that. Very thoughtful people. They care very deeply. Now we’ll go to the limitation. I always said my biggest limitation from blues is their unrealistic expectations. Because they live high, and they want all of us to live the same way. It’s called, you should want to do this. And I’m like a yellow thing I don’t want to do we use good. So I’m going to write a country western song someday called Take your shoulds and shove him. It can be so heavy.

Natalie 27:12
Or it could be called Stop shoulding on me.

Dr. Hartman 27:15
Yes, exactly. No, it’s exactly right. But they’re thinking I’m doing you a favor. I’m like, No, it’s no favor, I do not want that shit in my life. They also can be very hard on themselves. No Color is more difficult with themselves than a than a blue. They are very hard on themselves never quite measuring up because perfection is part of their problem, right? Right now I always tell people, for example, quality is positive blue. Perfection is negative blue. That difference is the motive. Yeah, the motive that drives quality is clean. The motive that drives perfection is dirty. It’s insecurity trying to cover up for by being perfect. Yeah, so the difference there, all of your positives will come from a clean motive. All of your negatives will come from a dirty motive. Like when yellow is spontaneous, that’s healthy and clean. When a yellow is impulsive, that is dirty. And unhealthy. So learning the difference between that and your personality. So helpful. Right.

Natalie 28:22
Well, and I can imagine for a blue with all of these expectations, at the end of the day, when they’re continually feeling let down by the people in their lives that aren’t meeting their expectations. At the end of the day, the path to that probably starts inward and accepting themselves and their own limitations and their own inability to live up to their own expectations and like finding love and that space and in the imperfection. Am I on the right track here? Yes.

Dr. Hartman 28:48
So on the right track, and it’s so important. They learn to do that. Yeah, because most blues give more to life than they give to themselves. They’re more willing to forgive others, nurture others. give to others. Yes, but inside, I’m not good enough. I never measured up. I didn’t do it. Right. Yeah, it’s also, blues also take these very personally. And often say to me, Well, you did it to me. So it’s not personal. I said, you’re making it personal. I’m talking about the issue, not you. And so because of that forget, for example, forgiveness is harder for blues, because it goes so deep that when it hurts them, they have a very hard time letting it go. Yeah. And they also have a hard time understanding what others would do things they would not do. And forgiving them for that.

Natalie 29:36
Yeah, that makes sense. It does. Absolutely.

Dr. Hartman 29:38
I also think one of the great strengths of blues is loyalty. One of the great flaws of blues is loyalty. They will actually they’ll stay for example, blue collar workers, so genuinely committed to the companies they work for and when the company decides that they can’t afford to have them and lets them go. The blue employee They cannot comprehend that, because they ate them all their loyalty for all these years. And then the organization says, but we can’t afford you and cuts them off. Yeah. Blues stay too long. Even in relationships, they’ll stay longer than they probably should. It’s not healthy. Yeah. Those are some blue blue traits.

Natalie 30:21
Okay. All right. Okay, so what’s next? All right. So the whites, okay, I get that you’re saving the best for the last by the way. I know this. Of course. I digress. Let’s move on to whites.

Dr. Hartman 30:40
There’s always room for a good white at a table. Okay. Always. Yeah, like they don’t. It’s, I think one of the traits I love most about whites is their egolessness. They really don’t make it about themselves. Like it really is amazing to me to watch them, not make it about themselves. Their core, their driving core motive is peace. Okay. Their greatest gift I think is kindness. They are so genuinely kind. They don’t think to say things that will hurt people. I have never whenever I’m working with the audience that you’re working with group the other day, and I sit at about halfway done. I said, I want the whites to tell me what you see happening. I’m telling you, they were brilliant. Like their ideas, right gems of gold. And I said, why don’t you share that? They said, Well, I just don’t want to interrupt. So that’s kind of their mindset, right?

Natalie 31:33
Can not relate to that.

Dr. Hartman 31:36
Yellow and cannot relate at all. We interrupt everybody.

Natalie 31:39
I just interrupted you to say that.

Dr. Hartman 31:40
No we do that! And it doesn’t bother me to be interrupted either.

Natalie 31:41
At least we understand each other.

Dr. Hartman 31:46
No, no that works great for me. Okay, good. I kind of like that the attitude if you don’t ask them, you won’t know what they’re really thinking. Yeah. Because they don’t want to impose. And they’re not certain what they have to say is that important. But I think one of the great gifts of whites is clarity. Like they see things so well. They’re great at like diplomacy, like you put them in international relations. They do really well with that. Because they understand different perspectives and they don’t think theirs is right. Yours is wrong. That’s not where they come from.

Natalie 32:18
Very nondualistic.

Dr. Hartman 32:19
Yes. A Great White country would be like Switzerland. They never start the war, but they’re counting all the money when it’s over. And it’s funny, by the way, you have like Canada, very, very white. You have America very blue. And you have Mexico very yellow. So to see them all border each other is kind of fun to play with that. Interesting whites really have a just a gentleness about them. It’s funny, by the way, some of these big football guys player like they’re really really strong and built strong. They’re white. Don’t say a word. They would not hurt anybody. But I say why do you like football? They go I love to hit I love we’re so independently driven. Yeah, that they’re motivated within themselves. So that’s a way they can get their energy out. But you see off the field. They would never know. Very gentle, easygoing, even tempered. It’s funny, by the way it was whites. I call it a trash can. We all have trash cans in us. And Reds have where you store stuff that you don’t like. Okay, and let’s have a trash can. Like you make a comment to a red you don’t look very good today. They don’t use the trash cans. They just tell you you don’t look great either. Right? So how trashy they are. Use it right? The Blues love the trashcan. Look at my life. Look, look what I’m doing with my life as a married couple who are my bosses, all with my struggles. So they feel the trash can they love it. Yeah, the yellows have a trashcan but it’s got a hole in the bottom. They can’t remember what they’re upset about. So they think you’re upset, but they don’t know why. So it goes off. But the whites hate conflict. So they store it anything negative that ever comes in. Nothing comes out and then one day, someone cuts him off on the freeway or who knows what happens. A small detail and they blow up. And then they empty the trash can. And then they’re fine. And they go back to life. That’s their communication. Yeah, even tempered but they see everything and they feel things they don’t share.

Natalie 34:30
And then probably taken other people’s trash too they’re like man, your trashcan looks pretty full. I don’t want to take some of that and put it in mine. Just like lay it on me.

Dr. Hartman 34:40
They’re very considered that way. negative side to whites. I can’t stand how whites mistreat themselves. Like they just missed opportunities in life, because they won’t put themselves out there. They tend to like comfort zones. It’s funny some whites I know are very adventurous in terms of physical things, but in turn The emotional stuff, knots tranche and they pull back. They’re resistant actually speak them have a voice. I’ve had couples through the years where a person would say, it was my fault the relationship was they’ll have to run amok, because they never said anything. I thought I didn’t agree with it. I didn’t speak up. And I should have learned to do that. They struggle to find their voice. Whites can be very lazy. Like literally, they can just sit around. And it’s so funny, like Reds and Blues will say is what’s going on in your mind? And they’ll say nothing. And they’re like, that’s not possible.

Natalie 35:34
Yeah. cannot relate once again. No,

Dr. Hartman 35:38
But they literally have nothing going on. They’re fine. My brother in law was so funny, he goes to his wife. If you die, I think I could just be a homeless person living with like, a cart on the ark. And she’s got these children and she said, I cannot die till they’re older. And he’s just very, very genuine. Do whatever you want. But he does not have much ambition. Right? Right. So they can they can be very passive, passive aggressive. They’ll never tell you what they’re thinking. But then they will hold hold you hostage in some other way. That’s the mother who doesn’t like you getting dirty. The boy goes out to play, some sports comes back muddy. She takes his clothes off. Some of the washer doesn’t say a word doesn’t fix him dinner that night. That’s passive aggressive. Yeah, it’s hard to know what you’re getting punished for?

Natalie 36:33
Yeah, walking on eggshells.

Dr. Hartman 36:35
All the time. It’s funny, by the way, it was white. They’re very kind. Except when they’re not. Like, they need you to be kind. You cannot be unkind to them, or they’ll write you off. But they can be very unkind to you by not sharing anything. So whenever you have a fight with a white you will lose. When everybody because they won’t fight. Yeah. But at the end of the day, they will win. Well, it’s very hard to kind of get them to speak up and talk about things. Interesting. So that’s the white. And whites can also feel lost, by the way. Like, what am I going to do with my life? Where might it go? So they actually like being told things very directly. They do not like you doing it with emotion. Okay. Just be very blunt and direct. And they’re fine.

Natalie 37:21

Dr. Hartman 37:22
Let’s go the yellow. Yellow is driven by fun. I see in color to be when you’re a kid. Everybody wants to be with the yellow. It’s like Ferris Bueller. Yeah, like they have a way of people like them, they want to be with them. They enjoy them. And then the yellow has to grow up, then they have to like show up on time, be responsible. And they’re like, Oh, I didn’t know that was part of my. So I have a lot of yellows who found out later in life. I should have done my homework. I shouldn’t have gotten away with everything. It’s so funny how yellows can con people to make it okay. They give them passes all the time. I had a grandson that I’m telling you, he did not do any homework ever. And the teachers adored him. Well, at the end of the day, he always passed right. I said that will come back to haunt you someday. But But yellows have a charm about them of charisma. The good side about that is they’re fun to be around. They lift everybody up. They’re like they’re like the table at a restaurant that you’re not at, and they’re just having the best time. You’re wondering, what are they doing? What are they drinking? What’s happening over there? Part of that? Yes.

Natalie 38:40
It’s a very contagious energy.

Dr. Hartman 38:41
Yeah. A lot of contagious energy. I have a friend that she loves Michael Ball, the singer. And she invited us to go with him to Canada. He was singing there. And I couldn’t go because of work. So she was another couple. And they all got up there. She and her husband, the other couple. Michael Ball was a scientist. It was not the singers thought it was. And so they’re in Canada. And the friend that went with them said to me, whatever Linda asked you to do do it. Because it’s so much fun no matter what you end up what complement the that was the whole wrong event. But that’s it. And it’s just how she is just a playful, fun and preferred and be with yellows are also very inviting. Yellows are inclusive. We’re not like you can’t be with us. We want you to join us in life. So very, very fun to be around that way as well. I remember a couple that wanted to get. They were they should have gotten married and they hadn’t for a long time. And why are you not doing this? Like you’re, you’re so happy together. And so I said to her, you need to get married. She goes well, we don’t have anyone can marry us. I said I can marry you. And she goes well, I have to be on an odd day of the month. Not an even day. This is an odd day of the month. She goes okay, marry us today. And we literally did a marriage and like two hours. Oh my god, everybody. It was the most best Have a loving, inviting moment of my life. Wow. Nobody whined about what was dressing who was dressed and wasn’t in laws or none of that. It was just magical. That’s yellow. Wonderful. Spontaneous. Yeah, right. And yellows, very trusting yellows honestly believe everybody is good. They discovered that isn’t always true. But he typically bounced back and back yellows very lucky. A lot of people looked at the yellow kids saying, how’s this kid gonna make it life? Yeah, they do. Yeah.

Natalie 40:31
Because, like, yeah, I’ve often said that like about, like, I’ve been in gratitude before, like, when I’m going through something hard. And you know, people like, how are you doing, how you’re processing, whatever. And I’m like, oh, you know, there are negative things. But I’m like, but I’m also really grateful that my predisposition is to be in joy. Wow, because I don’t know how I’d be surviving this season. If that wasn’t my default. And so I’m really grateful.

Dr. Hartman 41:00
You know, what I love though, about you is it’s natural. Like, like, they’re trying to teach people to be grateful. And you just come with it naturally. If you ever tried to help somebody as I have, who’s not grateful? It’s amazing, the barriers they’ll put up? Like, why should I be grateful for that? Or I would have been grateful if I had that opportunity. Whereas someone like you just naturally thinks I’m grateful. Yeah. And appreciates.

Natalie 41:28
Right. And I’m grateful.

Dr. Hartman 41:29
To be grateful. Well, you have a yellow, I have to say, Give. Yeah, it’s very positive and upbeat. So the negatives of yellow globally..

Dr. Hartman 41:46
No, that’s it. That’s number one. They don’t. That’s a great one. Yellows do not want to be told what’s wrong.

Dr. Hartman 41:57
That they’re not graduating, that they’re not showing up. It’s so funny, by the way, I can have people like I had a kid who went to college for a year or two. I can’t remember now. years ago. He did not go to school. He took his dad’s money for like year, two years play baseball did not go to school. His stepmother who I adore, red, red, red, red. She was yelling so loud. She was so angry when they found this out. And finally I said, okay, okay, you need to go. I’m going to talk to him alone. Yeah, she walks out of the room. And he says, I’m so glad I’m not like her. I said, Wait a minute. You just lied for a year or two, whatever. It was two years of school, lied and stole your dad’s money. But the fact that she’s loud, was worse than what you did? He goes, absolutely. I could not imagine being like that. So that’s kind of a sad yellow story where they just don’t see ownership. Yeah, for being responsible. Yeah. Irresponsible is another yellow trait. They will blow things off. My dog ate the homework. I didn’t turn in. I on They’re so bad. They’ll say to somebody, we should do lunch. Well, they may mean at the moment, but the minute they walk out of the room, it’s gone.

Natalie 43:11
I know I’ve had to make a habit of when I’m with people, and I’m like, Yeah, we should do this. I’m like, get out your phone right now. Good for you. I will not remember to do this.

Dr. Hartman 43:23
And people see I love your ability to say I need to counter that by being responsible. As people for example, blues that you say we should do that. And you don’t do it. They remember that. And it hurts them. Right? Was the yellow honestly is forgotten. Like they don’t even remember that was happening.

Natalie 43:39
And a blue receives that as a lack of care. Yes. Right. And the yellow is like, Oh, I had no idea that hurt you like that? Just doesn’t…

Dr. Hartman 43:47
because yeah, I remember at the time. Yeah. But I forgot about it. And the blue is that you will you forgot about it. You obviously didn’t care. That’s a good point. You’re right. Yeah. So that that gives you an idea of what yellows can actually flip through life kind of oblivious to accidents they’re creating, because they’re not hurt feeling them, then I experienced it. I’ve always said that. I live one life, two blues for lives because of what they go through so much more depth of pain than what I experienced. Because yellows are able to kind of be superficial. They’re able to kind of say, you know, it’s it wasn’t great, but it’s okay. And they’ll make the best of it. But on the other hand, yellows can be very self centered. They’re not selfish, like the red, but they’re self centered. Yeah. So I want to do what I want to do. You can come along and do it. Instead of what would you like to do? What would really mean the most to you? So yeah, that’s kind of the yellow. So there. Yeah, there you have it there.

Natalie 44:46
We have gone through color wheel.

Dr. Hartman 44:48
Everybody fits in one. Yeah. However, you have a secondary.

Natalie 44:54
I was just going to ask you this because I think I remember hearing this before with a conversation I had with a friend many years ago, who followed who followed the system. And I remember being like him saying two colors together. And they’re kind of being a secondary. And also, when you’re talking about blues, there were there were points in there that I felt very connected to. Yeah. But I’m like, very much a yellow. But I’m like, oh, that thing about the blue feels really true.

Dr. Hartman 45:23
Yeah, that’s really good. Yeah. So what that tells you is, see, I always say to people, there are purists like they’re almost all one color. And then there are those that are mixed, right? And the only ones that can do all four equally, when they take the profile or white. That’s their white. Why does it work? But as I’m a purist, yellow, that’s really when I, if I can’t answer yellow, it’s almost always red. Okay, so I would say that I’m yellow was red. Right? Right. Here’s the good thing. When you when you’re a core color, you send the same message all the time. But when you have a mix of colors, you can send mixed messages. But you also have gifts outside your color. Right that? Yeah, but I think it’s really important. Like, for example, my favorite people are blue with secondary red. Okay, everything I’m not 100% not, but I love these people, just wonderful to be around. And I think that everybody needs to understand who they are, and what the secondary is and how it impacts other people. Okay, as you navigate life better than being unaware, like of a yellow who’s obnoxious does not realize they’re being obnoxious. They limit their ability to have fun. Yeah, because people shy away from them. Right? Yeah. But if a blue who wants intimacy is being negative red, they’re not going to get intimacy with that person, because they’re being negative red. Right? That’s how you secondary.

Natalie 46:50
Tell me why blue with red? Are some of your favorite people, because that’s what you said. Right?

Dr. Hartman 46:56
They follow through on everything. They’re the behind the scenes, people like you. And I said earlier, we’re in the front of people. Yeah, they’re the ones in the back of the audience, correcting things baking, the details happen? Yeah. They’re so sincere. They’re like constantly churning inside, they’re fighting with themselves, because they have this blue in this red conflict that goes on. I don’t have any of that. And I look at it and appreciate the depth of who they really are and what they’re about. Yeah, that’s why.

Natalie 47:24
I love that. Well, and I’m glad that we talked a little bit about do you call it secondary color? Is that right? Yeah. Because I think it might be simple, or easy, I should say, for anyone listening to, you know, hear you going over these colors as a primary color. And then to go like, Well, I really do some of that, but not all of that, you know, and be able to say, Okay, well, then you probably have a secondary, non color, a secondary color. And I’m guessing it could probably be like different percentages to like you said, you have a very, very small amount of red, but like, who knows, I could have like a very large amount of blue that’s impacting the way that I would show up as a yellow instead of like, if I just had a very small, you know, amount of red, blue or a very small amount of white and it could, you could make make make it seem very different. Because obviously, we’re both yellows, but we probably have a way of showing up that’s very different because of that secondary color. Is that right?

Dr. Hartman 48:18
It’s so true. Okay, no two yellows are exactly alike. All you and I share for sure, is fun.

Natalie 48:26
But other than that, probably some things that motivate us in life. Right, right, the motivators, right.

Dr. Hartman 48:32
That’s the motivators. But our traits can be very different. And we can add different dimensions to it. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah.

Natalie 48:38
Yeah, I think that’s cool. I think it’s kind of fun knowing that people listening to this interview like that we’re both yellows, but to be able to give a representation of like how, again, not meant to put you in a box, and people show up very, very differently.

Dr. Hartman 48:54
I would hate to feel anyone’s limited. By knowing this. I would, I would hate that. It’s not the intention at all, is to grow you and make life more abundant, and give your opportunity to become better.

Natalie 49:06
Yeah, yeah. I love that. Okay, so now we’ve gone over this, and we’ve already been talking for almost an hour, which I knew that would be easy to do. And then I think this is important, you know, take his I’m sure there are many listeners who have no idea. You know, what the people code is. And so now let’s talk next steps. Anybody who’s listening who’s feeling intrigued, and feels like maybe this is something that I want to look into, where can they find you? How can they figure out where they fit in this color coding system?

Dr. Hartman 49:38
Okay, I have a couple of suggestions. Okay, so, one, I’ve done a podcast for the last two years. Okay. Oh, very best of living.

Natalie 49:46
I’ve listened to an episode. It was wonderful.

Dr. Hartman 49:50
Thank you. I I have really had fun with and we’re two yellow, she’s yellow and I’m yellow. Yes. So mental health and color code, that kind of thing. And they can go on my website, Taylor In fact, we’re offering for our listeners until November a code Invigor30. And you get 30% off your profile.

Natalie 50:15
Oh. So they can just go to your website and you have a profile right on your website where they can answer questions, right and get a result. And they use the code and INVIGOR30, right, you can get 30% off. Yep. That’s amazing. That’s a great discount.

Dr. Hartman 50:34
Because I want people to know, I’m sure when they read the report, they’ll be so I’m so it’s so helpful. Just to get a sense of Oh, my gosh, that’s so good to know. Yeah. Yeah. That’s how you can find me. Okay,

Natalie 50:45
Wonderful. How long does it take to do that? That tests?

Dr. Hartman 50:49
Five questions. So it’s actually very quick, okay. 20 minutes, okay, at most.

Natalie 50:54
And then they’re gonna get a result? And it’s gonna be, you know, is it going to, like score them and each individual color? Or is it just gonna say you’re this color?

Dr. Hartman 51:02
No. Okay. When you pay for the profile, you get the actual breakdown of all colors, okay, and it gives you a written report like 12 pages about who you are and what to do with that, and how to be effective with that.

Natalie 51:13
Ah I love that, that it’s not just here, you are here. As a result, it’s how to be effective and how to like, take this.

Dr. Hartman 51:19
And if you want to read more, they can buy the book on Amazon. Yeah. So you can always do that, too.

Natalie 51:23
The people code. Yes. Yeah, I think that’s wonderful. Because I think, especially when social media came into play, and it’s like, there were all these like tests you could do like, what Disney Princess, are you? You know, and some of these, you know, personality profiling systems, like the color code, and like Myers Briggs, and like Enneagram, it’s like, all of a sudden, there were these like, really quick on your phone, eight questions that people were like, oh, yeah, I took that test. I’m a I’m a five on the any grammar, I’m an IETF P or I’m a, I’m a white, red. And it’s like well, do that’s not really the purpose of this is to is, is to, is to give you a label. That’s not the purpose of these tools. And so I think it’s wonderful that your website, which no surprise, since you’ve obviously are very passionate about this, and have spent a long time investing in this gives a breakdown like that, because that’s really that’s really, really impactful. And I could just keep talking with you for a very long time about this. But I did feel it was important for us to really just go over what the system is, and why it’s important. So maybe we could have you some back on another time to dive into things deeper.

Dr. Hartman 52:32
Happy to do it. It was wonderful talking with you.

Natalie 52:33
Oh I had such a fun time. This time went by so fast. It’s a good thing. My co host wasn’t here because he would not have been able to get a word in edgewise. Like, miss you, Derek, like, I’m sorry, you weren’t here. Much love. This was good that you weren’t here. Thank you again. Thank you, Dr. Hartman for being on and thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in today. I hope this has been illuminating and that you feel empowered to go and learn more about who you are. What makes you tick the lens with which you’re viewing the world and others and feel yourself unlocked rather than boxton. When you take this test with a 30% off on Dr. Hartman’s website. Thank you so much for joining us, Dr. Hartman. We’ll see you next time.

Dr. Hartman 53:11
Thank you so much.

Transcribed by

Podcast Guests

Dr. Taylor Hartman
PHD, Author

Podcast Guests

Natalie Garland
5226 Outlet Dr, Paso, WA 99301
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