What You’re Really Hungry For | Dr. Kim Shapira

June 3, 2024

Join us as we talk with Dr. Kim Shapira, a leading dietitian and author, about the links between diet, mental health, and overall wellness. Discover how your food choices affect your mental and emotional well-being and get practical tips for a healthier lifestyle.


Natalie 0:21

Okay, today we are so excited to host Kim’s Shapira, who is a celebrated celebrity dietitian and author of this is what you’re really hungry for. We’re so excited for you to join us as we’re diving into the transformative world of nutrition and health with Kim’s expert insights. Kim, welcome to the Invigor medical podcast.

Kim Shapira 0:40

Thank you so much. I’m so excited to be here with you guys.

Natalie 0:44

Oh my gosh, we’re so excited too and my cheeks already hurt from like laughing. I love pre recording conversations. They’re so they really set the tone for the way the whole thing is gonna go. For example, we turned celebrity into celebrated in our intro on accident and decided just leave it in just editing it. She’s not just a celebrity dietician, folks, she is a celebrated celebrity dietitian. And we are so lucky to have you here with us today, Kim.

Kim Shapira 1:12

Now, I feel like I need to give a speech and accept the award.

Natalie 1:24

The award goes to… not me for pre production things. I was messing up on those but that’s okay. Okay, so.

Derek 1:37

We really should have like a blooper reel. I feel like that’d be pretty fun.

Natalie 1:28

A blooper reel?

Derek 1:28


Natalie 1:29

100% There’s so many different things that we should do. I want to do like a a edited together clip of every single time you’ve said Huberman.

Derek 1:37

Yeah, that’d be fun.

Natalie 1:38

Just like the, we make a joke, Kim, just so you can be up to speed. Most of our listeners, anybody who’s listening for any length of time knows that it’s like I have like almost like a clock. Sorry for how long it will take for Derek to mention Andrew Huberman. Because he’s like such a big Huberman fan.

Kim Shapira 1:52

Oh that’d be funny. Let’s start the clock.

Natalie 1:53

I know. Right? And so that’s like a joke. So I just want there to be like a reel on Instagram. That’s like…

Derek 2:02

Huberman, Huberman.

Natalie 2:03

Huberman, Huberman, Huberman. And like, it’s just because anyway.

Derek 2:05

It’d be pretty funny.

Natalie 2:06

\We’ll have to work on those.

Kim Shapira 2:07

Yeah, that needs to get done. Now let it happen.

Natalie 2:08

Yeah. Our producer is listening in the booth back there. So Evan, start taking notes.

Derek 2:09

That’s right.

Kim Shapira 2:15

No, and my cheeks also hurt from smiling. Because it’s so funny. So funny. Okay, I’m here, I’m present.

Natalie 2:22

We don’t really care about being smart. We just hear about being funny.

Derek 2:25

That’s right.

Natalie 2:25

That’s a joke. Anyway, let’s talk about you, Kim.

Kim Shapira 2:29

Although I do feel like it’d be more effective if you’re funny and light hearted, because you are talking very, about very serious stuff, you know?

Natalie 2:38

It’s stuff that can get a little monotonous and possibly boring. And especially these are conversations that we’ve been having for generations to one degree or another. And so people get tired of hearing it. And I think everybody kind of just, it’s probably already enough of an internal dialogue in most of our heads about how to eat healthy and take care of ourselves and lose weight and be at optimal health, right? And so you’re like, already tired of the inner voice that critiques you. And now you have to get on and listen to somebody else talk about it. Even though you know, you should, and you need to learn and expand your mind in this way. So man, let’s have some fun with it. And I’m so glad you’re on board with that, Kim. So let’s dive in. And tell us about you. I mean, we want to hear about all your knowledge and expertise. But let’s also get a little peek into who Kim Shapira is and how she got here today.

Kim Shapira 3:26

Okay, but before before that now, like I have to just talk about all the ways in which somebody can be triggered, just from hearing that we’re going to be talking about diet, nutrition, weight loss, diet, culture, all the yo yo, like, like, whatever, you know, what I’m trying to say. And the point is, is like, at this point, whoever’s listening should take a deep breath, and get out of the temper tantrum and be like ready to like, open their mind to a whole new experience, because I feel like I have the answers to solving everyone’s problems.

Natalie 3:55

She is your guru.

Kim Shapira 3:58

Yeah, I’m here and I’m ready. So yeah, I’ve been in private practice for 27 years.

Derek 4:04


Kim Shapira 4:05

Which means I’ve seen a lot of people on a regular basis. And I will tell you my story a little bit, because I think it’s important to know why I got into this. I would say that I was a sick kid. And I’m 50 now and when I was 12, I got sick.

Natalie 4:23

First of all, you do not look 50 now. For anybody that’s listening…

Derek 4:26

No, not at all.

Natalie 4:26

I would when you said 27 years, I’m like she became a doctor at 13…plus carry the 2. Anyway, sorry to interrupt you.

Kim Shapira 4:35

Yeah. So I got sick in 1986. And as I was driving to UCLA to see my specialists, I must have been crying in the car. And I would say that I was like a very sensitive 12 year old and my mom said to me, don’t cry. We’ll go shopping after the doctor appointment. And I had four male doctor appointments again, I was a shy 12 year old with four male doctors and they were just big men. And what she did was given me a gift of having the ability to put my mind anywhere, but in the moment I was in. And so every time I would go to the doctor, which would be every Wednesday for about four years, I would think about what I was going to buy after the doctor appointment. So as you can imagine, a very large shopping addiction ensued. And somebody told me in high school, that food could make you sick or healthy. And I latched on to that very quickly. And I wanted to be healthy. And I wanted to help people because I had been such a sick kid. And I decided food was going to be the answer. And I went to graduate school. It was, I wasn’t that passionate about food so much as why people were afraid of fat. Because it was the snack-well, eras, right? And what you know what could be in fact, that would be so scary to people? I didn’t understand it, I didn’t have an issue with food, so to speak.

Natalie 4:36


Kim Shapira 4:36

And I got out of graduate school, and I hung up a shingle and started a practice. And my first client was a therapist. And I say this because she should have been smarter than me. And I put her on a diet, and she lost 30 pounds, and I was really proud of myself. And then she said, You know, I’m gonna gain the weight back, because my husband wants to be intimate with me all the time and I was molested as a child. And I thought, okay, I don’t know what I’m doing, because I can’t get her to eat kale when she really wants to eat something else. And so as I started kind of doing a deep dive, I started recognizing my clients eat the same way that I shop. And so that, to me, was like, the most profound moment for me. And at that point, I was able to change from putting people on diets to incorporating what I call my six simple rules, which simply became, I know that I can’t stop thinking about this, you know, purse over at Gucci that I can’t afford. But what happens if I put it on hold? 

Natalie 7:05


Kim Shapira 7:06

What kind of, if I can get curious in that moment? What happens to me physiologically? Will I survive this moment? Right? And so that basically opened the door for what I call the six simple rules.

Natalie 7:18

Wow. That’s a cool story.

Kim Shapira 7:20

Yeah. And I changed-Yeah, because I started, stopped focusing on people losing weight and sort of focusing on how to keep the weight off they lost. So many things.

Derek 7:29

Yeah. You know, to nerd out a little bit specifically about the word diet. So I’m a nerd in many ways. But one of the things, one of the things that I really love is like breaking down words and what they actually mean, and what is the root of it? Because really understanding that can really inform language and how you communicate. So I think that the word diet has been, what is the word I’m looking for? Misappropriated? Is that correct?

Natalie 7:56

Almost demonized.

Derek 7:57


Natalie 7:58

I hate you using it like, I want to find a better word so often, but then, but like, it is the word, but it’s just been so. [disapproving sound] It’s so negative!

Derek 8:04

Twisted, in so many ways. Well and really, at its root, when I think it’s Greek the word originates from is the Greek word is Diaeta. And that literally means like a way of life. Right. And to me, that seems so holistic, so inclusive of like, this is just something that you are beginning to adopt. And it’s like, this is what you know, what you eat is just part of your life. And it sounds like that’s kind of what these six rules that you’re talking about kind of entail. So maybe let’s dive into those. What are the six rules that are a big part of your program?

Kim Shapira 8:07

And by the way, chapter one of my book is on the word diet, the word fat and the word calories. Because I think, like, you can’t even do the six simple rules until you know where your mind is. And if your mind is not in this moment, then you know, you really don’t know how you feel or what you need. And so I think you’re right on that diet means the way that I eat my lifestyle.

Derek 9:02


Kim Shapira 9:02

And it’s not supposed to be sensationalized or a bad word. It’s, you know, we all have a diet. And so I think it’s really important to when you do become triggered, to practice bringing your mind back to this moment. It’s kind of like going to the gym for your mind. Yeah, very weak muscles. And it’s important to like, I would say, ask yourself where your mind is all the time?

Natalie 9:27


Kim Shapira 9:27

So like, for instance, you can say, Where is my body? And then we would answer, it’s right here. It’s like minds in Pacific Standard Time. It’s right here in this room. And then you can say, Where is your mind? And each one of us can track our minds and some of us are going to think our mind is on dinner next Thursday, or what we had yesterday or a conversation we had about finances with our partner, right? If our mind is not actually in this moment, we shouldn’t be moving forward in anything.

Natalie 9:55

Yeah, I remember I the I wish we could like have a revolution. And around the way that we use the word diet or not the way we use it, but the way we think and feel about it, because I started noticing years ago, how I felt when I said it, and I hated it. So I started saying like, Oh, yeah, I’m on a new eating plan. Because like, that’s really what I was doing is I was changing up the way I was eating. Right? But I just, and diet, you know, like you said, the definition works. But I didn’t like the way it made me feel. I didn’t like the way people responded to it when I said it, and it and I was so fed up with like, diet culture…

Derek 10:28

And fad diets.

Natalie 10:29

And that terminology. Yeah. So I was just like, I’m just going, I’m just like, it’s an eating plan. That’s how I said it for a while now. But you know what?…

Kim Shapira 10:35

Why is it actually, why is it anyone’s business? Like, you didn’t ask me like, if I have like, 800 count sheets? Like, why do you have to talk about like, the type of eater I am?

Natalie 10:44


Kim Shapira 10:45

Like, I am curious, like, when did that become everyone’s personal business?

Natalie 10:49


Derek 10:49

You know, to touch on that. Like, it seems like, in general, you talk about any kind of diet on online on the internet. And it’s such a barbed wire topic. It’s like, you have carnivores, and you have the vegans, and you have the vegetarians, and you have the Ketos and the paleos. And they’re all just like at each other’s throats constantly.

Natalie 11:07

Which is the best way? Mine is best!

Derek 11:09

And it’s like, to me, it’s so like, at least all the research that I’ve done on it’s it’s counterintuitive, because it’s just like, each person is different. And so really what it boils down to is, the thing that’s best for you is the thing that’s best for you, it’s not going to be the thing that’s best for, you know, Joe or or Kelly or whoever, you know, whoever’s down the street from you,

Natalie 11:30

Let’s delve into the six rules that you’ve discussed. Let’s like give people actionable items here.

Kim Shapira 11:37

Okay, let’s do it. Okay, So rule number one is to eat when you’re physically hungry. To take your normal portion, cut it in half and wait 15 minutes to see if you need more food.

Natalie 11:47

Like after you’re done eating that half?

Kim Shapira 11:51

Yeah. It’s a lot of information. So like, slow it down. Most people eat because of the time of day, or because they’re in a lunch meeting, not because they’re physically hungry. And I want everybody to pay attention to their actual appetite, because it’s all about your metabolism, right? So we’d be hungry, every three and a half hours, two and a half to three and a half hours, this is a good sign. If you aren’t hungry in three and a half hours, you ate more than you needed in your last meal. And if you’re hungry sooner than two and a half hours, you didn’t eat enough. So this is a really good way to gauge it. And I want to start by saying nobody wakes up in the morning and thinking, oh my god, I’m gonna have to pee six and a half, six times today and I need to know where the toilets are. We all kind of trust we’ll find the bathroom, right it and we leave the house in peace. And we have to remember that food is everywhere. And we’re okay. And it doesn’t have to be a plan always. Okay, so you eat when you’re hungry. You take your normal portion, not the portion the chef prepared for you. Not the portion that’s on the label. Okay, the portion that you normally eat, you cut it in half.

Natalie 12:52


Kim Shapira 12:53

You put half on hold. And the first bite you take is the count to the 15 minutes.

Natalie 12:59


Kim Shapira 13:08

And the reason we wait 15 minutes is because that’s how long it takes for leptin to tell our brains that we’ve had enough food.

Natalie 13:07

Okay, gotcha.

Kim Shapira 13:08

And so every human has the ability to know when they’re satisfied, they just have to be mindful and in the moment and know what they’re feeling

Derek 13:16

Awesome. Can we dive in just a little bit about leptin? And what that is and how it works? Exactly.

Kim Shapira 13:22

Yeah. So our body is regulated through neurotransmitters and hormones. And we have one hormone called ghrelin, that tells us when we’re hungry, and one that tells us we’re satisfied. And so leptin is the hormone that is telling us that we are satisfied for now. And so like when you look at these semi glutamates, or you know, weight weight related drugs, they’re actually working on that leptin piece. So they’re actually getting you to be full faster. And so that’s kind of like the exact same thing that happens naturally with us in about a 15 minute window. And sometimes at 15 minutes, we need more food, and sometimes we don’t. But we have to be mindful to know what we’re feeling.

Derek 14:02


Kim Shapira 14:03

Does that answer?

Derek 14:04

Yeah, definitely. And I was gonna say, whenever I hear the word grehlin, I just think of the word Gremlin.

Natalie 14:09

I do too!

Derek 14:11

Like these little these little goblins in your stomach that are like “give me more food.”

Kim Shapira 14:16

But you know what, like, and the thing is, people fear food in a way that like, I think it’s fuel for our body. And like, I get in trouble for saying that because people want to say it’s pleasure, or it’s fun, or it’s entertainment, and it’s 100% not any of those. And people forget they live inside of their bodies. I had this client the other day, say to me, I’m trapped in my body. And I’m like, You Are you really are. You should live there and like you happy to be there and like, listen to what it’s communicating to you. It’s okay to be hungry.

Natalie 14:46


Kim Shapira 14:46

Not scary.

Natalie 14:47


Kim Shapira 14:47

But it becomes scary when you ignore it because your survival is at risk. Yeah, so of course, it’s gonna get more and more annoying, and that’s the Gremlin we’re talking about. Right? 

Natalie 14:56

Right. Right.

Kim Shapira 14:57

But in general, our stomach, the lining of our stomach, when it gets a little low in food-Gremlin, grehlin!


Derek 15:07

The Gremlins get released!

Natalie 15:15

That’s good.

Kim Shapira 15:16

Yeah. And then when food gets to a certain level on your stomach leptin is released, and you’re told it’s satisfying. So it’s important to wait that 15 minutes to see if you need more or less.

Natalie 15:25

Now, here’s a question for you, because I’m wondering, and because you, you did bring up semaglutide, which something we talked about here, here on the Invigor medical podcast, and I know, especially for really obese people can be a very helpful tool, and not just for that, and I don’t want to spend too much time but my thought, as I was thinking that is for someone who has not been in touch with their satiety cues for a very long time, you know, in your experience, like how much time does it typically take, you know, practicing that 15 minutes wait for them to actually be aware of a sense of fullness, you know?

Kim Shapira 16:03

That’s a great, great, great question and deeply loaded, especially if you’re talking about semaglutides, which we can talk about in a minute. But in general, your body takes three days to recover from everything. So if you overeat salt, or you overeat any other food, it’s going to take three days to recover from it. I would, and it’s very important to recognize where your body fat is. So if you have a high body fat, that means you have a slow metabolism. You’re not going to be as somebody, as hungry as somebody who has a faster metabolism who has faster, who has less body fat. So that’s what I mean, it’s heavily loaded. You know, when you have to pee, right? And if you stopped having to pee, you’d run to the doctor. Hunger is like very important, and tells us that our body is functioning properly. If we stop getting hungry, this is a sign that something is off.

Natalie 16:58


Kim Shapira 16:58

And so if you were just to take your normal portion and cut it in half, ideally, you would feel hungry sooner than not. But there’s so much fear. And again, remember, you’re you get triggered so easily by the word hunger or diet or restriction. And this is not a restriction you have permission to eat. When you’re hungry. All I’m asking is you start with half. But there is that total FOMO that comes in at start with half like what happens to the other half? What if I starve to death? What if I miss out on the warm food? Are you kidding me? Like you’ve had 21 meals this week. Historically, for your entire life, you’ve had 21 meals, which tells me you’re going to eat again, and food is on every corner. But the bottom line is our mind needs to know we’re safe at all time. Just like we don’t worry about finding toilets. We don’t tell our heart to beat our lungs to breathe. We don’t tell our mind to think. It does it to help us survive every single moment in the most pleasurable way. And if we’re in any discomfort, food is obviously more fun. And so it’s up to us to say to our mind, it’s okay that I’m not comfortable right now. I don’t need food. I’m gonna have it when I’m hungry.

Derek 18:12

That’s really interesting.

Natalie 18:13

Well, and thinking about like that fear, like you said, like, take your half and like, and just see how you feel. And if the fear is like, what if I’m hungry to get an hour? And what I’m hearing from you is like, well, then you would eat and you would just take half of what you would normally eat. Like, what do you feel-What’s the amount that you want right now? that you normally have? Cut it in half? What if I’m hungry in an hour again? Then you would eat! Is what I’m hearing for you is kind of like what you said your daughter. She’s like, I want to be a vegetarian. She’s like, well, what if you just had some steak sometimes? Like, what if it wasn’t shackles?

Kim Shapira  18:44

Yeah, absolutely. And the thing is, we’re so short sighted, like we’re we have short term memories. None of us can remember what we ate yesterday. And yet, we’re so hyper focused on what to do right now in this moment, and we need to remember that we’re safe. You know, when when the world is scary, or when we’re in chronic stress, we don’t feel safe. Yeah. And this is like probably the number one cause of every disease is chronic stress. And that means like, I mean, ideally, how can I say this, like what happens in every human person is we develop between three and five emotional triggers in the first six years of our life. When we go through something traumatizing, we develop another trigger, and then our job is to master these triggers to become detached and to master them. It doesn’t mean that we’re not going to have anything traumatic happened to us again, right? We couldn’t predict we couldn’t have predicted 911 We couldn’t have predicted COVID. We couldn’t have predicted lots of things and it’s going to happen we can’t prevent it. But we can really practice training our mind to be here, even if it’s uncomfortable. And also remember the food is right there. I can have it.

Derek 19:54

Yeah. That’s such a powerful…

Kim Shapira 19:57

Sorry, I kept interupting you.

Derek 19:58

Oh, no, it’s alright. I didn’t mean to interrupt you. I think that’s such a powerful point. And an example for my life kind of popped up. There’s been periods of time where I’ve practiced intermittent fasting, right. And, you know, done various things. And I’ve noticed that and I think that it’s important to be able to recognize behaviors behind eating, right, because you don’t want to be like, an emotional eater. And we’re anytime anything terrible happens, you immediately go to for, you know, chocolate or bag of Lay’s or whatever it is. But when I, when I would be fasting, I would notice that, you know, obviously, you’re not eating food. So the amount of like, your fight or flight or the sympathetic nervous system is going to be more tuned, which leads to like, more focus, which is great. But I would notice that when I would experience something really stressful, like if I had a really hard day at work, or if I had some sort of relationship problem, that I would almost default go to, you know, from a fasting state that almost default and say, you know, forget this fasting thing, I’m gonna, I’m going to eat. And so I think it’s such a powerful tool to be able to recognize that food relates directly to our state of mind or relates directly to the parasympathetic and sympathetic systems.

Kim Shapira 21:11

Yes. Yeah. And if we can remember that Food is fuel. Yeah. In our rational mind, we all know it’s fuel. Right? Whatever I’m eating is fueling every one of my cells in my body, then it helps us recognize if I think food is anything other than fuel, it means I’m not okay. And it’s okay that I’m not okay. This is a moment for me to say to myself, How can I get okay, but first I have to accept, I’m not okay. And it could be that I missed a deadline. Because what makes us well, is related to like you said, relationships, career, finances, adventure, friendships, our physical body, there are lots of little things like about seven or eight things that make us well. And when we’re disconnected or jarred in any one of them, we flip our lid and we become irrational, we get into the throes of a temper tantrum. And we can’t really have a rational conversation in the throes of a temper tantrum, we have to calm down, which has to happen through deep breathing. And then once we’re there we can accept, here I am, I don’t like it. I don’t like that I’m in a fight here, or that I missed a deadline here, or that the world feels stressful. But I’m here and in this exact moment, I’m safe. And that is what your mind needs to know at all time. And it’s kind of funny. I was on the phone with my mom, probably 20 years ago. And I said I had to hang up on her because there was a sale at Bloomingdale’s, and I needed to get something. And she said you know Kim, Bloomingdale’s has a sale every day. And I said, ‘No way. That can’t be true.’ And then she planted a seed, I had to get curious. And she was right. A little girls actually had the sale every day. And when I knew I was safe, I didn’t have to rush off and get it. And when I can recognize that food is everywhere. And I’m not starving to death. And I can get it when I need it. I can even bring it with me. I can have it on the desk next to me. When I know I’m safe. My mind stops making you know irrational ideas. And then I can recognize my chest is tight. My neck hurts. This is why I’m thinking food is a good idea. Not because I’m hungry and my cells need fuel. Okay, so what do I need to do? I need to see a chiropractor, an acupuncturist. I need to practice some box breathing. I need to go for a walk. I need to listen to some high vibration music right? Now I can really help myself. If my mom had said to me when I was 12,  TThis is scary, Kim. Going to the doctors is scary. And this is hard. But you’re going to be okay.” It might have been different for me had she not said we’ll go shopping after? Right? And every one of us- Go on.

Derek 24:00

Oh, sorry. No, no, go for it. I’ll let you finish your thought.

Kim Shapira 24:04

It not that-your turn.

Derek 24:05

I was just I was just gonna say, here’s the Huberman mention…

Natalie 24:09

hahaha, there it is. That is maybe the longest ever.

Derek 24:13

He just dropped an episode today, which was about parenting, and I don’t remember the guests he had brought on. But the guests was saying that when something hard happens to your child, one of the best things to say to them is “I believe you.” And that in a way that’s that’s better than saying like, I hear you or you know, like, yeah, that’s hard. But really just saying, I believe you because it’s such an open ended. It’s such an open open ended statement of being able to say like, you know, I acknowledge that this is who you are, and this is what you’re feeling. But it doesn’t like necessarily kowtow to say. And so I’m going to do XY and Z for you. It allows you to take the next step and say okay, well, you know, what can we do to solve this problem?

Kim Shapira 24:56

Yeah. I mean, I love that. And by the way, my mom is my best friend. Yeah, and like, I’m so grateful for all my experiences, but you know, like, it’s just interesting when you look back…

Derek 25:06


Kim Shapira 25:06

…at where seeds get planted? Yeah.

Natalie 25:08

Mm hmm. Well because as parents, we’re all going to fail at some level, right? And I know, you know, being a mom now gives me a lot of grace for my mom to be able to go and, you know, to see all the ways that she failed and to be like, okay, I forgive you. And there’s still so much that was good there. And that’s just you know, because now I’m like, a really hope to god, my kids are gonna be able to do that with me. Because at the end of every day, I’m like, going through the list of like, all the ways that I messed up, you know, and so wanting them…

Kim Shapira 25:36

And that’s the reality. We’re all good. We’re all I like I said, three to five emotional triggers in the first six years of your life in even in a very loving home. So it doesn’t matter. You know, we all you know, we parented through COVID. I mean, that’s, that was not easy. We were not okay.

Natalie 25:54

Oh my gosh. I was not okay.

Kim Shapira 25:55

You know what I mean? 

Natalie 25:56

Not even close.

Kim Shapira 25:58

Right! So, you know, we all did the best we could, and for sure, our kids are gonna have stuff to work on. So there’s that. Yeah.

Natalie 26:05

Hey, I hope you’re enjoying today’s podcast, I just wanted to take a quick break. Because if you’re listening, you probably know what we do here at Invigor medical podcast, but maybe not what we do at Invigor medical.com. So let me introduce us. At Invigor, we provide prescription strength treatments and peptides for weight loss, sexual health and lifestyle optimization. Every treatment plan is carefully prescribed by licensed doctors and sourced from legitimate pharmacies. You don’t ever need to buy questionable research chemicals again. And bonus, as a podcast listener, you get a 10% discount on your first treatment plan with code PODCAST10 at Invigor medical.com. Now, let’s get back to today’s episode.

Natalie 26:43

I want to keep going on to the six simple rules. I don’t want to get too off topic because I feel like there’s something we could go down a really big rabbit trail on. But I do want to touch really briefly. We’re like the kings and queens of rabbit trails here today. Because Derek brought it up, and you and you’re mentioning, you know, like every two to three hours, you should be hungry. Can you touch on intermittent fasting, because that’s something that we’ve talked about a lot here. And so I am curious what your thoughts are and how that could kind of play into this first rule that you’re going over?

Kim Shapira 27:16

Yeah, we should actually talk about intermittent fasting around sleep, which is rule number six. But let’s let’s touch on it because if you look at the word, diet, intermittent fast is a diet. Okay? So this is where it gets sensationalized and overblown.

Natalie 27:32


Kim Shapira 27:33

We don’t necessarily want to fast. We don’t even want to follow with non diet, we don’t want to go down the Atkins or the zone, or high carb, low protein, high fat, we want to have something called moderation, righ? We want to have a diet that is fueling our body when we’re hungry. So if we do an intermittent fasting, we’re actually just jumping right back into the next and best greatest fad diet. Ideally, our body should be hungry, and it should be satisfied, and it should be hungry often. We, we listen to our bodies, chemical reactions, and that’s how it communicates with us. Like I said earlier, if you overeat, you’re basically telling your body prepare for a war, right? If you undereat, you’re basically telling your body, you’re in a war. So now we need to conserve, we want our body to not be stressed.

Natalie 28:26


Kim Shapira 28:26

Our body reacts to internal and external stress in under 10 seconds hit tipping off the hippocampus, the pituitary and adrenal glands, putting us into 19 different physiological states, so we can run from the lion that just came into the room, and then we’re not recovering.

Natalie 28:42


Kim Shapira 28:42

If we are fasting, we are restricting.

Natalie 28:45


Kim Shapira 28:46

And that restriction tells our body we’re not safe. We’re and so then it tends to overeat, especially if you’re not in a good place where you’re feeling like, you know, emotionally well. So ideally, we should not be eating after dinner, we should have between a three to six hour space between our last meal and the time that we’re laying our bodies down. So this helps our body digest and then rest. And rest is meant to basically vacuum every single one of our cells and reduce inflammation. And we should wake up in the morning at a reasonable time after we’ve slept well through the night hungry. When we wake up hungry, we’re ready to eat every two or three days. So I think that between dinner and breakfast, we’re already having the only fast we need.

Natalie 29:41


Kim Shapira 29:41

And I can’t tell you how many people I know who say like, Oh, I’m getting close to the time that I can’t eat anymore. So the only thing here is you know, something like coffee bean I’m just gonna grab a muffin and like a sandwich.

Natalie 29:53

Right. Just eating whatever within the time window. No.

Kim Shapira 29:56

I’m like, What? What are you saying to me, like the Food is fuel. Oh, it’s not fuel? It’s just based on the body clock, you’re changing your circadian rhythms? You’re just working on like these hours rather than what your body needs? There’s a lot of problems here.

Natalie 30:09

Yeah, yeah. I was just gonna say it sounds to me, like, you know, because I’ve done a variety of intermittent fasting over the years, I kind of naturally didn’t actually mean to do it. I just found myself not really being hungry, even. And so I was just like, oh, this is easy. And it’s cool. I can do that. But really the biggest thing and what I heard from you, and what I’ve always thought is the biggest deal is that break between dinner and breakfast, and like giving kind of that digestive reset period of time. Right?

Kim Shapira 30:35


Natalie 30:36

So it’s interesting. So thank you for taking the time to just touch on that, because we’ve talked about fasting and different varying degrees on the podcast. And I think it’s always important to have different ideas.

Derek 30:47


Natalie 30:47

And, and philosophy surrounding it expressed. So thank you for taking the time to express that. And let’s move on to numero dos of the six rules.

Kim Shapira 30:56

Number two is to eat what you love, and to make sure the food loves you back.

Natalie 31:01

Mmmm. Oooo, I like that last part!

Kim Shapira 31:03

So actually, we’ve talk a lot about emotional triggers. Yeah. What does that what does that tell you? What are you thinking when you hear it?

Natalie 31:07

I’m thinking about the things that I eat that do not like me back that makes me feel like dog poop afterwards. That’s what I’m thinking about. I’m thinking about whenever I have too much non cultured dairy. Thinking about if I have too much sugar. Thinking about occasionally some gluten. Weirdly enough, I have a sensitivity to vanilla, that I typically get eczema once I’ve had vanilla.

Derek 31:31


Natalie 31:31

I know, isn’t that an odd one?

Kim Shapira 31:32

Common. Very common.

Natalie 31:33

And I forget about it. Because I don’t have I don’t have much of a sweet tooth. So I don’t have like a lot of baked goods or whatever. And so like I accidentally had vanilla like three times in one week, because I got a cast iron pan from my mom for Christmas. And I was like, oh my God Dutch babies! And my kids love the Dutch baby pancakes. And so I like made three in one week. And at the end of the week, I was like, Why do I have so much eczema and it’s because I put vanilla in every single one of those Dutch babies. So but that’s what’s going through my mind whenever I think about let the food love you back-is I immediately thought of the things that didn’t love me back. And so that

Kim Shapira 32:07

I mean, I love what you just said, but I will say the majority of people and I’m curious Derek, what you bought, because I don’t want to run out of time. Like, if you heard what you love, or you heard that make sure it loves you back.

Derek 32:19

I was gonna say, I hear both. And you know, like, for me, I’m one of my big passions is cooking. I love cooking, I love like branching into different culinary experiences and trying to kind of explore a lot of things that way. So that definitely resonates with me on a deep level. Love me back-that the thing that kept popping into my mind is like, if you have specific goals, right? So for people that are trying to build muscle people that are trying to lose weight, people that are trying to, to consume the number of calories that are needed for like, long endurance, training, that those types of things. Like to me, that’s when the food loves you back. It’s like you’re going for a specific goal, and it’s assisting you with that goal. Or even if it’s overall health, right.?

Natalie 33:04

That’s a good way to think about it.

Derek 33:04

I think that’s kind of the thought that popped in my head.

Kim Shapira 33:08

I think you are both on the exact same page as me and a lot of people only here eat what you love. And then there’s that, like that intermittent fast, like oh, you you I’m gonna lose weight just eating cake and ice cream. And I’m like wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. But I said eat when you’re hungry and start with half.

Natalie 33:25


Kim Shapira 33:25

So if you eat what you love, are you hungry for ice cream? Or are you just craving it?

Natalie 33:31


Kim Shapira 33:33

Right? And so it’s important to also recognize we have, there’s food allergies, there’s food sensitivities, and there’s food intolerances. The only one that is permanent is a food allergy, right that doesn’t go away and it can get worse as you get older. But if you’re sensitive to foods like vanilla or something, then you’re actually getting an opportunity to just say somewhere in my gut needs a little bit of support and we can do that by adding you know fruits and vegetables, whole grains that you can tolerate, fermented foods, probiotics and omega threes, but I never gave permission to eat foods when you’re not hungry.

Derek 34:10


Natalie 34:11


Kim Shapira 34:11

Right? But we really do have to work on that. This is healthy This is unhealthy this is good bad. I should I shouldn’t and we have to get rid of those and just call food food.

Natalie 34:20

Yes. Thank you. I love that. Let’s not make the polarizing. It’s not good or bad. It’s just food. Yeah, it’s like a feel like feeling same. Feelings aren’t good or bad. Their feelings. You’re supposed to feel them. Yeah, I’m not categorized like you know, so Amen. Sister you’re preaching.

Derek 34:35

I will say though, so this is to quote from Michael Pollan’s book in defense of food, which I absolutely love all of Michael Pollan’s work. I don’t know if you’ve ever read it. And one of the things he talks about is the difference between food and food substitutes. That a lot of the food that we see in the grocery store aren’t, isn’t actually food. It’s like food substitutes. It’s he’s the guy that kind of came up with the rule of like, if your great, great grandparent wouldn’t recognize it, then it’s not like real food. I don’t, you know, it’s an interesting take on it. But, you know, he’s very much for Whole Foods if, you know, meat, vegetables, things along those lines. So I, I…

Kim Shapira 35:16

I think I also I’m in agreement with all of that. But the truth is, when you’re talking to people and trying to help them heal their relationship with food, you have to just call food food. And then you have to recognize that you have eczema, or you have you’re having gas, what about the diarrhea you had? Or the headache? Like, what do you think that could be caused by? And what if we tried an apple instead of applesauce, or you know, something else? something silly like that? Right?

Derek 35:41

Along those lines.

Kim Shapira 35:41

Like, what if we tried the whole food? How would we be affected? Yeah, but there’s, there’s a lot of diet culture in here around food. And what I’ve learned is they’re going to eat the stuff your grandparents aren’t going to recognize, even though they don’t think it’s food or healthy, and then they’re gonna be full of shame. And chronic stress is related to every single disease.

Derek 35:41

Yeah, yep.

Natalie 35:43


Kim Shapira 35:43

We’ve got to deal with the stress. We’ve got to deal with the way people think so we 

can open their minds,

Derek 36:07

You know, to touch on that, too. So there’s a, again to mention a episode of Huberman he talked about this conversation. I think it was just a mount around mindsets. I think it was Kim Shapiro. No, that’s you.

Natalie 36:25

That’s you.


Derek 36:26

No, who was it? It was it was another It was another. I think it was another Kim. What know Wendy Suzuki, that’s what it was. I think it was Wendy Suzuki, who was talking about mindsets and things along those lines. And she was saying that the mindset that you have towards your food of like, if you can, if you can not lie to yourself, but like, say, you know, you think cake is decadent, and so like you want it. But if you can kind of not convince yourself with say like hummus is like this really yummy, really decadent thing that’s also can be very healthy for you. You know, that’s all of a sudden, you’re recognizing, oh, I love this food. And this food then loves me back kind of being able to enter and think about food in that kind of way.

Kim Shapira 37:14

Yeah, I mean, that’s an interesting thing. I come from a place of let’s learn to coexist with food. And, you know, like, I want to be in Aruba. But I I’m not currently there. And I could also know that I could get there at some point. Yeah, but I can except I’m here right now. And so it’s like, if I’m thinking about cake all day long. I need actionable-I need something very actionable to get me back into this moment and to recognize that cake isn’t anytime food, but just not right now. Food.

Derek 37:44


Kim Shapira 37:46

Right? And so again, like, I won’t have cake at one o’clock in the afternoon, because I won’t feel good for the rest of the day. And then if it turns out later, I’m still thinking about cake. I have to question whether or not I’m hungry or not. If it’s just because my mind is telling me cake is a good idea. I can have a conversation with my mind and tell my mind. That must mean that something’s going on with my body or I’m having sugar cravings, but has nothing to do with hunger.

Natalie 38:15

Or you just literally watched a commercial or a photo like that’s oftentimes what it is for me. I’m like, not hungry at all. And then I’m like, There’s somebody’s eating a hot dog at the baseball park in a movie and I’m like, Oh my God, I need a hot dog. Like right now. The thought is introduced and then the grehlin is released and the Gremlin says “hot dog, hot dog.”

Kim Shapira 38:34

Right, but it’s just a thought! Right. We have 60,000 thoughts a day like to really be able to practice seeing your thoughts as trains. And your practice is staying on the platform and the trains just let them through. Right? I only see Yeah, I see the hotdog thought doesn’t mean I need to have it right now. I can have a hot dog any day of the week. But then when it comes to ordering food or getting food on or having a hot dog?

Natalie 38:57

Right, right. Because you just mentioned how to like the trick of like getting back to like right here right now and checking in and like because that’s a good point. And maybe maybe you’re addressing this more next next rule, but like, determining Am I actually hungry? Like is it just an interesting though?

Kim Shapira 39:10

Yeah, all right. Rule three. Rule three. I only have a few minutes so I’m gonna race through them. Yeah, Rule three, eat without distraction. So we tend to eat food, if it’s in front of us 30% more if it’s just right in front of us than if it wasn’t in front of us. So we should be not having food in front of us if we’re not hungry. We tend to eat more when we’re watching TV or reading a book or distracted. I would highly recommend when you do eat, practice eating slowly, it’s really important to smell your food. To get the saliva in your mouth, which has the enzymes to break down the food you’re about to put into your body. I would practice smelling your food and chewing your food even longer than you think necessary considering these are the only mechanical ways to break down our food. The rest in our stomach is totally different. And so we really need all the help with Get and it will slow us down. So we eat because the foods in front of us. We eat because we’re extremely emotionally distracted. I just, you know, missed a deadline I’m saying screw it right now whatever the reason- I eat because I’m hungry and I eat because of cravings. The only real reason a person should eat is because they’re hungry in their stomach. And I would also say, with an asterick *normal eating is sometimes having birthday cake on your birthday or a friend’s birthday, but it’s not doing it two days in a row. That’s a habit*

Natalie 40:31

Every night finishing the birthday cake until it’s gone.

Derek 40:34


Natalie 40:34

No, I was just thinking about the about how, you know, the idea of having family dinner, like every night and how it’s been really kind of promoted as a, as a social and emotional well being practice, but what you just described to me says that family dinner together also, this is what I’m thinking about when you’re saying, you know, don’t eat in front of the TV or when you’re reading or just act because if I’m sitting with other people having food-I just experienced this last week! I ran into a friend at Chipotle and decided to sit down and have lunch with him. And normally when I take that Chipotle back to my desk, and I’m working, like while I’m eating, I eat the whole thing. And I’m stuffed. I sat there eating, eating with him. And I did not even eat half. Because we talked and talked and talked and that’s what happens at dinner too. Because we’re sitting and we’re talking and we’re engaged. And so boom, wow. Who would have thought family dinner is actually good for your physical health, as well as your mental and your emotional health. Yeah,

Kim Shapira 41:35

Yeah. Right on, right on. Okay, rule number 410 1000 steps every day. We don’t move enough. Our body is meant to be fidgety and to run around and, you know, be-grow old and be agile and still have muscle mass and balance and agility and all the things so we can have independent lives. We’re very sedentary. I get 10,000 steps every day, and I still sit for seven hours straight.

Derek 42:01


Kim Shapira 42:02

So we need to move as often as possible. For sure. Yeah, the average American gets about 3000 steps. They’re obese. And that is of course related to a shorter lifespan and a bunch of weight related diseases. Ideally, you want 7000 steps, but I always say 10 because I’m working on the maintenance. How am I going to maintain this weight that I’ve lost? 

Natalie 42:24


Derek 42:25

And so that kind of relates to this idea of NEAT, right? Non Exercise Thermogenesis I missed an E. What’s that? What is it? non exercise? I think that’s just not exercise thermogenesis

Kim Shapira 42:38

I’m blanking right now as well. Yeah.

Derek 42:41

Yeah. But basically, so So NEAT is just like the it’s kind of like your basal metabolic rate. That’s part of it. But that also includes everything that’s on that’s on top of that. So like, twitching your leg, or like walking around in getting your 10,000 steps? 

Kim Shapira 42:55

Yeah! Talking with your hands.

Derek 42:55

Yep, yep, exactly. One of my one of my favorite people on YouTube that’s in the kind of the fitness and health space is a guy named Jeff Nippard. And he did a whole video talking about like, ‘Is obesity a choice?’ And he talked about a lot of really interesting things. And he talked about how he talked about leptin and ghrelin and how some people have naturally more amounts of ghrelin and less leptin, and that some people have naturally more non exercise thermogenesis than others. And like, I think they had did a whole study where they took 100 people, and they gave them all an excess of calories by like, 1000 calories. And some people only gained two pounds, and some people gained like 20 pounds. And just like how is that even possible? But it’s because…

Kim Shapira 43:38

Well, then I would I would look at their visceral fat.

Derek 43:41


Kim Shapira 43:41

Because, right? That’s not metabolically active at all. And that actually slows down your metabolism. So depending on how high your visceral fat, which is the fat that surrounds like your abdomen and your organs. Makes it, it’s like, really slows down your metabolism. Yeah. I’m curious about that.

Derek 43:57

I think this, I think that getting those steps and just becoming more active and being aware of like, how active you are throughout the day, I think is absolutely fantastic thing.

Kim Shapira44:11

Yeah. Nobody regrets moving.

Natalie 44:08

Alright. Are we on to number five? Is that right?

Derek 44:11

Yeah, I think so.

Kim Shapira 44:11

Yeah. And, um, yeah. Number five is to get a cups of water every single day. I know. There’s like lots of confusion about how much water but I think aiming for eight cups is the magic number, I don’t think depends on how overweight you are. If you need to lose 20 pounds, you probably need two additional cups of water. If you are overly caffeinated you probably need two additional cups of water for every cup of coffee. But in general, we can really dilute our our vitamins and minerals and we don’t want to do that. So I would stick to eight cups every single day. And this is how we detox every one of our cells. And when we’re hydrated we feel great when we’re even 1% dehydrated we feel very fluish and can’t think clearly. And I’m gonna run through the next one because I have to hang up on you guys.

Derek 45:00

Yep! Go.

Kim Shapira 45:01

Okay, the last rule is to get seven hours asleep. And the average American gets six and a half hours. And we really need between seven and nine hours. We Americans have problems falling asleep, staying asleep and waking up unrested. And we really have to work on all these different areas of sleep and eating close to bed actually causes us to wake in the middle of the night it screws with our blood sugar, it all-it also tells our body to wake up. And so I would highly suggest dimming the lights and allowing your body to release melatonin at its normal time. And it’s kind of like when you have babies, you don’t want to miss their sleep window. When melatonin is released and you feel a little drowsy. You do not want to miss this window. You want to put yourself right in bed.

Natalie 45:44

I call it my sleep train.

Derek 45:44

That’s right. [laughing]

Natalie 45:45

My sleep train comes to the station, I gotta get on the train or it’s leaving the station.

Derek 45:50

That’s right.

Kim Shapira 45:52

But I don’t recommend melatonin supplements because it tells you your brain to stop making them. So I, you just really need to work on balancing your own circadian rhythms. Yeah. And I’ll have to come back and talk more about that. 

Derek 46:01

Oh we’d love to.

Natalie 46:02

Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having taken the time we had such a blast. And I was not surprised that we went over and we’re rushed now at the end. But thank you so much, Kim, for taking the time to talk with us today. It’s been wonderful.

Kim Shapira 46:13

So much fun. Thanks, guys.

Derek 46:14


Natalie 46:15

Bye bye.

Derek 46:15

Alright, take care.

Kim Shapira 46:16

All right. Bye, you guys.

Derek 46:18

Thanks for tuning in to the Invigor Medical Podcast.

Natalie 46:20

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Derek 46:24

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Natalie 46:29

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Podcast Guests

Kim Shapira

Podcast Guests

Derek Berkey
Natalie Garland
5226 Outlet Dr, Paso, WA 99301
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